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Talk:Kayle/@comment-25532677-20141229012228/@comment-24082016-20150203173937
Well, I posted something several weeks ago, and it got deleted by an Admin without warning. I've contacted the admin for feedback but he's become scarce. So I'm just gonna repost what I wrote before. This time, I've omitted pieces of it that might seem harsh, but my aim is to get points across. I have a feeling that the Admin will appear again just to delete another useful post, so if this one disappears, or you want to read the un-edited version, you'll have to message me on my wall for it. Omitted sections will be marked by " *** ". Lol. I usually get the gender right, but playing battleborn makes me feel like a flying garen(obnoxiously large upper body armor tends to do that). Was feeling rather lazy this week, and didn't feel like making the effort to reply. But, found some unexpected free time on my commute, so here goes the teeth grinding. @Simoncr1s- I'm glad you got something out of what I've been saying. Ftr, I don't play just pure AP. I prefer pure AP. But I play all the types and try different skill progressions. What ive stated works for all that I've stated, arguably even better than for a pure AP. I truly think the investment in those defense points are greatly wasted when you go kayle, and a number of other champs. As for Solstius, thank you for the lengthy and thoughtout response. Helps give everyone a better idea where you're coming from. Now concerning the points you made- I'm a bit dumbfounded about your focus on the idea of getting MS through masteries. When I say superior MS, you apparently thought I attributed that to Fleet of Foot. So let me clarify. I do remember saying on multiple occasions that I do not hold Fleet of Foot in high regard. In addition to that, I don't bother with MS quints. My Mastery investments are 25 0 5 or 27 0 3. What I consider a must is the mana regen, not the Fleet of Foot. Superior MS is something far better acquired through her abilities rather than any mastery, rune or equipment. MS may not prevent CC, but it's far better at deciding who lives and who dies than some below mediocre damage reduction. For those who don't understand, when I use the word "technically" in the context I used it in, it's more along the lines of "yah, but no". The argument in favor barely passes as true, but in the bigger scheme of things, is unsatisfactory. Like, "Oh,I technically pased my Chem test. Yah. It was a whopping 65." Would you really call that as passing? Would u really call -2damage decent mitigation when people are doing between dozens-100s times more damage by mid-lategame? Do you find urself NOT having those moments of "if only I had 2 more hp" when u invest in those masteries? What's more likely to happen: having 2-16 less hp points being the reason u died, or not having the mana to proc an ability that might win you a fight or save you/someone else in one? But getting back to the topic of MS, allow me to explain why it plays a big role in Kayle's survival. No Kayle isn't the strongest "long range". Infact, hers would probably be best called mid range, as in just far enough to be out of range from most ranged AAs that aren't directed at you. That range seems longer when her splash takes affect, but it's undoubtably within the danger zone of most champs. And it is when she toes/crosses this line when decent enemy champs will look to pounce on her. So, the game of Kayle vs opponent is very different from something like shen vs maokoi. ***. It is a game of poke and out sustaining. In order to do the damage she needs to, and get out of unfavorable distances(e.g. gapcloser and/or cc used) she needs proper anti-engage tools, and so that's why MS is relevant, because that's what her tools manipulate. She becomes a kitting monster when she posses greater mobility, even against those CC champs that Solstius hints to being the Meta of Today. There are many ways to have better MS and/or positioning. But before I go over them, I will start off with addressing your concerns of the CC/burst/bruiser meta champs of today. I'll use the champion list you gave of troublesome "top-laners"(Maokai, Pantheon, Jarvan, Malphite, Wukong, Riven, Ryze). Now, Imma list a bunch of scenarios you might be familiar with. When I do, assume that this is a lane matchup(top/mid), there is no camping occurring, and both champs are the same level throughout. *** Losing trades to a Riv post lvl 4. *** Trouble with a wukong pre 6, which inevitably leads to the trouble post 8. *** Losing trades and maybe dieing to a Panth pre 6(post6, not hard to win). All these scenarios are common for the average Kayle today. But let me pose an idea. More food for thought I guess, although this in alot of ways would be considered old food. I remember 1 person posting a statement that sums it up. " Sometimes maxing Q first is better than E". To further elaborate, when the opponent has gap closers and/or hard cc, a lvl 1 Q isn't gonna help u. It's not a question of whether or not an enemy can reach u. It's a question of whether or not pursuing addition hits would seem "obviously more trouble that its worth" to them. *** I never said mitigation is prevention. What I said was the best mitigation was prevention. That's a huge difference. When you chose to max E first, you forfeit Kayle's strongest tool to winning duels vs melee/champs of shorter attack/ability range. While yes, Panth or Riv can go in on u hard pre 6 with 1 of thier trademark skill rotations+ cc, but there are multiple scenarios where you can at least match if not best their damage. *** It's during the time they spend still chasing u, while slowed, or trying to escape damage. *** And of course, the baits including ur ult, where they jump on u confidently, only to do close to no damage and get smacked around while slowed. Giving while refusing to take damage because of the distance control you acquire through ur MS superiority due to cc/buff is by far the most effective way of kiting on Kayle. Not an insufficient MS difference that allows followup melee atks or receiving heavy hit-and-run poke with little chance to trade back to be a real concern. Thats what prioritizing E and sticking with lvl 1 Q does). Against burst, you win duels+trades between evenly farmed champs by having vastly superior MS at the end of the burst cycle or lockdown ability attempt, and hammering away at the opponent while they attempt a momentary disengage. You shouldnt be losing to a Ryze in laning phase by no means. You should even have a fairly good chance of beating him up with only 2 items finished in midgame. That's assuming you actually know how to use ur Q to Poke, and to use it halfway through the duration of his binding ability. And it is for that reason I used Kog as an example. YES Kog is a fine example because he has a slow that leaves people butthurt. Like Kayle, he lacks a strong disengage(although, I'd argue W is a really strong disengage for any backliner). People will look to jump onto Kog, but get caught in his slow without a usable gabcloser, and he'll enjoy shredding you for lunch. If that simple logic escapes you, then I can see why you're having trouble understanding. It's because SoloQ is chaotic that you shouldn't underestimate the game changing potential of your MS related abilities. It is because of your MS related abiltites, and the occasional decent peel by teammates, that you'll be able to kite and shred people on Kayle. It is because you have better than average mana regen that you'll have more moments of being able to stick around longer on map and help with objectives before returning back to base. Which brings me to the scenario someone posted about concerning an enemy team barreling down midlane to a tower protected only by a Kayle. Im gonna be very brief on this, since I think explaining this is silly to begin with. Early or Lategame, unless your playing against people of REALLY low rank, an enemy team(3-5 champs) is by no means gonna let you sit under tower as you try to dishout damage, especially not a Kayle. At these points, juggling tower agre to secure the kill on a Kayle who has ult up and continue the seiging is only a matter of execution. How you fail to kill anything semi-squishy under their tower isn't a result of the bare 9 points they point into the defensive tree. It's the 9 points you wasted in yours as oppose to something providing the needed destructiive power or opportunity(e.g. mana regen). *** So getting back to my point. What's gonna make or break your Kayle isn't the miger damage reduction she can obtain from the defense tree. It's the damage of her abilities(yes, righteous fury is an ability), and the mana needed to make plays. Whatever Kayle your building, if she has no mana, she doesn't amount to squat. So while you're investing in defense masteries to last half a second longer, I'll be investing in masteries to better my kill pressure and to keep my mana flowing. What's the point of you lasting another half a second if you aren't making any impact? Now, for all those hardcore AS fans, let me ask another question? When do you notice your investment in E(+10 damage per lvl) to bear fruit as oppose to Q(+50 damage per lvl +5% slow)? ...Any guesses? I'll give a hint. When does an AS build truly become an AS build? ...The answer is actually a 2 part. Assuming you aren't silver/bronze/wood ranked, and getting free hits for days on champs that aren't tanky, you're AS becomes a strength in dragged out, close quarters fights where you'll have plenty of opportunity to land an AA. Now, concerning Kayle, vsing any non super tank, when will maxing E investment be the most optimal choice? Many would jump at the guess of "always". I don't blame you since alot of the "pros" do it. Then again, alot of the pros aren't using Kayle anywhere but jungle nowadays. Incidentally, their Kayle records are mediocre and she doesn't see much professional play anymore. But that's besides the point. So when is an E investment gonna yeild the better/best return? Well, this is based on your average AA per "engage"(a string of attacks, including 1 sided hammerings, but more likely to be a trade of some sort). If you're doing at least 5 hits, then you are matching the damage you would have succeeded in causing with a higher lvl Q. Any more than 5 hits would be a better output of damage than the Q(not counting any extra proced damage like lich bane or whit's end). This becomes more easily possible after your first back, which is most likely to be between lvl 5-8, when you AS fanatics get your stinger(hopefully). But even then, not many people get to dish out this rather reasonable number of AA hits, even when getting an "ideal" matchup of Kayle(meelee/ranged) vs someone melee. *** When to-the-death skirmishes and teamfights happen, your E will have more chance to pump out damage. So investments after 8 will most likely yield a better return. The only thing it wont help with are towers. Next question. What's easier to chain AA hits on? An opponent moving close to his regular speed if not great, or someone cced to at a speed akin to standing still? Rhetorical? If not, then I'm even less surprised you land only 2-3swings. That's because you've chosen to max E first. Guess it never occured to you that a Slow a\Ability yeilding both stronger damage and effect that gives you the opportunity to land 4-5 slightly weaker AA hits to be an alternative. But ok, let's work with that idea, and ignore the better cc a Q investment gives. With lvl 1 Q and lvl 1 E being the "base damage",what does more damage? lvl 2Q+ 3 lvl1 E hits(total of +50 damage) or lvl 1 Q+3 lvl 2 E hits(total of +30->35 damage)? lvl 3Q+ 3 lvl1 E hits(total of +100 damage) or lvl 1 Q + 3 lvl 3 E hits(total of +65->75 damage)? How about lvl 4Q+ 3 lvl1 E hits(total of +150 damage) or lvl 1 Q + 4 lvl 3 E hits(total of +105->120 damage)? Even ignoring the better CC it gives, that your poke becomes truling concerning, that tower diving you becomes a "Not So Wise" decision, that the damage it allows you to produce at a moments and without the need to stay in prolonged danger, Q simply helps you dish out more damage faster. Yes, it's cooldown starts at 8 when u have 0 cdr, but the slow effect is 3. As you get cdr, that 5 second for normal speed retaliation(with the last 3-2 being used for baiting enemy laner for a full engage) will get smaller and smaller, and you'll become more and more obnoxious beyond belief. But again. I guess that concept of maxing Q before E is just unthinkable. *** So, i'll go back to discussing this "chaos" and need for " assurance". If Chaos is such an issue, why do you think that -2 less damage per recieved hit against you, a champ who wouldn't last for any more than 15 melee hits to begin with(talk about low threshhold for pain) as oppose to investing in what will make you do the damage needed to putdown threats and not have to rely on others to peel properly for you? For a champ that specialises in damage and utility, you choose to forgo the choices to empower her *** unsatisfactory sustain to try prolong her fragile life? *** That approach couldn't be more incorrect. New Edit: Watching the LCS, you even c the Koreans and Chinese opting to put as much as 9 points in the ulility tree for their offensive mages. How else do you explain those yummy biscuits they chew on?